Podcast transcript: Episode 28- Paving the way for financial inclusion in the informal sector- Financial planning and retirement

Transcript

Host: Welcome to the Experience pod, where we focus on emerging technologies, trends and their impact on the Nigerian and Africa's business landscape. Many of us look forward to retirement, a well deserved rest after a lifetime of the grind, packing away our tools to enjoy the fruits of our labour, and finally relaxing knowing there's something to fall back on. However, for most Nigerians, this is not a reality. 

The UN estimates 93% of all employment in Nigeria is informal. This sector includes petty traders, street vendors, and domestic workers. According to the IMF, the Nigerian informal sector accounted for 57.7% of Nigeria's 2022 GDP, making it a major contributor to Nigeria's economy. Despite this, millions of Nigerians in the informal sector are excluded from traditional pension systems. What this means is that they are not able to secure an income after retirement and fall into poverty after their working life. To combat this issue and bring more of the informal sector in and reduce financial exclusion, the Nigerian government expanded the coverage of the contributory pension scheme in the 2014 pension reform act and formally introduced the micro pension plan in 2019. Despite its good intentions, enrollment rates have been poor. 

According to PENCOM, only a dismal 84,000 have registered for a micro pension as of November 2022. This is where Pencom Tech comes in - founded in 2020. Awabah is a digital micro pension platform for the African workforce. Awabah’s mission has been to accelerate micro pension adoption, to improve financial inclusion and guarantee every Nigerian a financially secure future.

To talk more about championing financial inclusion in the informal sector. My name is Ade Ogunsanya, associate director in people and organisation team here at PwC. With me today is Mr. Tunji Andrews, the co-founder and CEO of Awabah. You're welcome Mr. Andrew. 

So can I call you Tunji?

Mr. Tunji Andrews: Tunji is always better.

Host: Okay. So Tunji, what is the inspiration behind the company name ‘Awabah’ it sounds very African. Is that deliberate?

Mr. Tunji Andrews: Well, to start with I know that and this is a problem, right? Everybody calls it ‘Awabah’ in a modernised way. It is actually pidgin English, it is ‘Awabah’ like Our bar, our money, our cash. It's a scenario where we're trying to build wealth for everybody. It's an inclusive company. So we call it our bar, so it is your bar, it is my bar, it is our bar. 

Host: So now I know! Okay,so tell us a bit more about the company's mission and vision.

Mr. Tunji Andrews: Alright, so our vision is to be able to create a sustainable future for Africa's workforce.  We do that specifically by creating financial wellness tools for informal sector workers across the continent and we're starting with Nigeria. The real reason is, if you look at someone who's in a nine to five, they have tools available to them to be able to battle sustainability. So we're talking about financial wellness today but financial wellness also when you retire. Informal sector workers do not have that leverage. If you do not have cash flow, especially in Nigeria, as an informal sector worker, you are completely useless to the financial system. They don't care about you, except of course, you want to take your money and take it out of the bank and that is what we're trying to create. The way to be able to do this is either by forcing the government to create something that gives them leverage or by using what already exists, which is micro pensions to start them out by saving and using that long term saving to be able to build other financial services that they can access today, but also into the future.

Host: Okay, interesting and thanks for that. I just want you to talk a little bit more about the challenges, mainly around people within the informal sector making contributions to a pension fund, because you will probably agree with me that  a lot of Nigerians who are both in the formal and informal sector see this as a very challenging thing. With their hard earned money,  they believe their savings will be eroded or even wiped out because of mismanagement, inflation, theft, and so on. There are several cases, where pension funds have been mismanaged to name a few - police pension funds, and that sticks in the minds of people. So there's this issue of trust. How do you then convince people to actually part with their hard earned cash for saving towards their future?

Mr. Tunji Andrews: I think that it needs to starts with a conversation of empathy. At Awabah or basically as Tunji Andrews, I've always felt a deep commitment. It feels like a personal mission to create tools that informal sector workers can be able to leverage upon. I first thought to myself that financial inclusion was the way to fix it, right? So you think to yourself, once everybody's financial included, the problem is solved. But what is the question of financial inclusion to a Mama Risi that lives in the Dugbe area of Ibadan, for instance, does she need a bank account? No, she does not. She can keep her money in her "kolo" and if she wants to send money to her son, who is Inquirer, she can give it to mama Bisi who is travelling to Kwara next week and she'll give it to her. So, she doesn't really need your financial services. What will make her see sense in inclusion is when you give value, and that is what our Awabah is entirely about. We are about giving value to them. 

So we start at empathy, and we say why would this person want to save to begin with? Why would this person be interested in saving? Do we think that we can preach to this person about the uselessness of wasting or eating all they have today? I mean, the money they have today is all they have. For you to come from that perspective, you must really be on your high horse, so we come from that empathy perspective and we've always thought about the fact that what can we do to make sure that these people have a sustainable future. So the first thing we do is we've bundled our product, so every time you save, we give you complimentary life insurance. It’s standard, we pay for it, you are not paying for it, the customer is not paying, Awabah pays for the life insurance of the customer to make sure that if something happens to them, while they're saving, their family members get,a sort of cushion to fall on because we know that a lot of these people are breadwinners. 

So we come with a perspective of value with a little bit extra - you can get health insurance, not the kind of HMO that you are experienced with. But these people usually go to what we call chemists. Is it possible that we can create a health system that if they go to pharmacies around them, they can get the drugs or not pay for it by just paying maybe 60 Naira or 50 Naira every month? Yes. So we've created that in a system for them also. So ultimately, every time we create a product, we're thinking that this person will not buy it, even if you put a gun to the person's head. So what kind of value do we have to attach to this product for this person who can't read or write, who sees the banker as possibly somebody who is trying to come and take from them instead of giving to them? What kind of value must this product have for this person to bind to this and every time we create a product, it always is from that perspective.

Host: Interesting, because I note that one of your goals is to onboard 5 million Nigerians in five years. 

Mr. Tunji Andrews: Yes. 

Host: Now that is quite a serious target that you set for yourself. Currently, what are the challenges that you are facing with reaching people who are in the informal sector, for example.

Mr. Tunji Andrews: So the first thing is, I need to be clear that we do not have complete control over the product that we sell. Awabah is a shared service provider in the pension industry, Awabah is not a pension fund administrator. So think about it as the conduit to which the pension funds reach the people on the streets. Because we do not have complete control over how the product is designed, sold or modified, we have to follow regulations and we have to always follow everything that is in line with that conversation. So we let the industry lead, but because we are on the streets, we have a bit more understanding of what the customer on the street wants. So relaying that reality on the street to the regulator and the pension funds is a major challenge. I'm glad that the regulator is very responsive and very supportive. But getting everybody on the same page quick enough to be able to get across to 5 million people is the first step.

I think the second step also is the adoption of technology across the board. So we've now started creating low technology options - USSD, chatbots over WhatsApp to be able to get across to every single person, but it is still not enough. So now we're now trying to expand our agent network from 3000 to 63,000 to be able to reach every Nigerian wherever they may be across the Federation. So there's a lot that is going on and it also needs to be realised that we're creating a lot of these things from scratch. 

Think about banking 20 years ago, that is where the pension industry is now in terms of adoption, in terms of people understanding. If you go on the streets in front of us and you ask 10 people what a bank is, all the 10 would give a vivid explanation of what a bank is and ask the same 10 people what a pension is, if one knows It'll be great, right? So we're coming from a low understanding of the general public, we're coming from a low trust base from the general public. So we're building everything at the same time -  trust, understanding, education, technology. So all of these things are together, we're building at the same time. So if we were not as passionate about what we're doing, I'd say there was no chance to make it work. But we're really super committed to doing this and that is what pushes us to continue to do it every day.

Host: So do you think that the cashless policy that was recently introduced by the CBN would eventually have an impact on pension tech. Let me explain what I mean, because a lot of people are still in the informal sector for banking. With a cashless policy, they will be forced to adopt some sort of technology in making daily transactions and with that, once they get educated and comfortable with such platforms, it's also easy for them to then onboard or easier for you to onboard such people using pension tech. So do you think it plays positively to a part of your goals?

Mr. Tunji Andrews: A lot of things are aligned in our favour. One of them is which you have said, the cashless policy does help, it does help a great deal. Another thing we need is a lot more empathy from people who are driving financial inclusion in their spaces to understand the issue from the perspective of the excluded. Right now we're trying to force financial inclusion down people's throats without understanding the benefit for the person that we're trying to include. So we needed an alignment of so many things to work in our favour, but definitely yes, the financial inclusion of cashless policy drive that the CBN is trying to push right now helps a great deal. 

Host: Okay, great. I’d like to sort of move slightly to emerging trends.

Young Nigerians overwhelmingly dominate the labour force. As of 2020, Nigerians aged 25 to 34 years old were presented the largest labour force population in the country with around 23 million people. For many young Nigerians retirement may appear distant but this is simply not true. Many are vulnerable to old age poverty without retirement savings. So what is your strategy to capture and retain this market?

Mr. Tunji Andrews: When we came into the market, we started to see a few fintechs trying to de-market what we were selling, trying to compare what we sell with investments. I consistently made it clear that pensions are not an investment, It's a savings. It's a savings or insurance. It's insurance in case life happens to you. So you can go out and do all other things. So Bill Gates, for instance, I'm sure Bill Gates has a  401. K, right. But his 401 K is really a big issue in his everyday life thinking. He's a billionaire, right? But in a case where Bill Gates wasn't a billionaire, his follow-on cue was to make sure that he doesn't fall into poverty. So what I tell people is that pensions are unlikely to make you rich, but it is guaranteed to ensure that you will not be poor. 

Host: Absolutely. 

Mr. Tunji Andrews: So thinking about it from that perspective makes it a must-have for everybody. So it's that thing you have first before you go and do every other thing, before you start investing in stocks, bonds, everything in life, you first have to have this, this is the foundation, this is the safety net. This is the thing that ensures that every other thing you do, if it fails, you still have something to fall back on and that is where we come from.

There's also the conversation around the devaluation of the Naira and high inflation. I tell people that but many people just do not also understand how pensions work. Pensions are long term savings, you don't save pensions for five years, you save pensions for 20, 30, 40 years. So there's the long term compounding effect of pensions and also inflation is a yearly event, it is not a spread event. So there are years where inflation is 12%, there are years where it is 8%, and there are years where it is 14%. You don't use 14% to judge your pension fund, you use the stretch over 10 years, the average, which comes to about 9%. So if your pension fund is doing above 9% year on year, you're still retaining the value of your cash.

Host: Tunji, the economy is really rough. A lot of people in the informal sector are living from hand to mouth. To be able to afford a pension, you must have some sort of disposable income. How do you convince someone who is just trying to get by in life to invest in your product?

Mr. Tunji Andrews: By giving them financial services today with the services that they are preparing for in the future. So think about it, let's reimagine this together and I'll tell you how we think about this in Awabah. Your pension fund returns every year, right? Why shouldn't your pension fund be able to give you complimentary health insurance every year based on the fact that you have money sitting in the pot? Why do we have to separate the conversation? and this is me thinking, right? I'm just throwing it out there and I'm telling you how we think. If my pension fund is returning, say 15%, 14%, 11%, Can I take one percentage of that and pay for my health insurance this year? Pay for my life insurance this year? 

Host: Yes, it's possible. 

Mr. Tunji Andrews: So that means if I have money in the pot, I don't ever have to worry about health insurance again for the rest of my life, I don't have to worry about life insurance for the rest of my life. Right? That is one point that appeals to someone like you because you have a full understanding of what health insurance is. Now, if I do that, is it possible that because I have that money there, I could get access to small credit. Because I have money sitting in the pot, right? I can get access to small credit at very low interest rates, not what you get from the average commercial bank at 19% thereabout. But think about it, this money is being leveraged against my pension fund so I can get it at 2% or 3%. Doesn't that benefit me? This is the way you think with empathy to an economy that will not save. You have to think about the long term prospects of the fund that you're asking them to keep aside and use it to make life better for them today. If you do not reimagine pensions from this perspective, it will not move but we've realised that we do not have power to be able to do that, that is the regulator's conversation. That is the pension funds conversation, but from our perspective as a FinTech, can we be able to create a bridge between what they're doing and what can be accessible to the customer right now? That is what we're doing.

Host: Interesting. So in your view, what can be done to sort of speed up this process? Do you think that reimagining the possible for example, maybe having the regulator's taking a different stance or a different look and allowing those pension fund administrators to include products that would also attract and enhance the value of the pots to the customer. 

Mr. Tunji Andrews: So I do know that the regulator's said a few things that they've started to do, which is in line with that. I know that there's a lot of proposals on the table and they are out there pondering through it. One that they've done, which I really applauded, was that you can use 25% of your pot to be able to get access to a mortgage. That is fantastic. For me, it's a huge proposition. Not only is it 25% of our actual pension pot, but it also means that we can use that to stimulate the real estate economy and create more jobs on that side to be able to bring a multiplier effect to the funds that you have sitting in your pocket. 

But yes, the conversation is not reimagining pensions, but seeing what is happening across the world. So with my 401 K, for instance if I'm in the US, I can borrow against it. If I'm in the UK, I can borrow against it if I have a pension fund, there are so many things that can happen around my pension funds. What is happening in India is what is happening in Singapore with informal sector pensions, for instance. So all we are doing in Nigeria,  I was asked by someone who was saying earlier to me that we are disruptors in the pension industry, and I'm saying no, everything that we've done so far is done somewhere else. We've not gotten to the point of disruption yet, we're still bringing us at par to what the world is doing with pensions. For me, in my mind, I think about it from the perspective of looking at Singapore, looking at India, looking at America, looking at the UK, if we can just bring those models and take things and I know that the regulator's already doing some of that, the pension industry will be a lot more robust and attract more people and build the funds that we have in AUM than we have now.

Host: Interesting, that leads to my next question around regulation by the Pencom and the returns from investments that PFA’s carry out on behalf of those who have retirement savings accounts. It's mainly investing in government securities. So due to this, the PFA’s would argue that they are not able to maximise value or make profit and the government would also argue that they want to protect those who have actually invested in such schemes so that they don't lose the value of their pensions. So there's this dichotomy between trying to maximise value and also protecting the pension pot as it stands. Do you see a situation where the Pencom would allow PFA’s to take on a little bit more high risk investments?

Mr. Tunji Andrews: Is there a need to? I don't think there is. To Be honest, as long as we're not losing value, and when I say 'losing value’ I'm talking about inflation and devaluation, as long as we're not losing value in those terms. Pensions should be pensions. Let's not turn pensions into investments. The world needs to understand what pensions are. Pensions are a factor of saving you against old age poverty. When you get to retirement, you're able to live the standard of life that you want to live. That is it. It is not about anything else. It doesn't give you skyscrapers, it doesn't buy you a Bugatti, It doesn't buy you a Rolls Royce. It gives you the standard of life that you have saved up in your pension pot. That is what pensions are meant to do. 

Now, here's my fear. I have followed a bit of the US pension situation. They've gone a bit aggressive with the 401k conversations. There's no money in the pot anymore because people have gone into aggressive investments. Nigeria's FinTech businesses get investments from venture capitalists who get monies from LPS who get money from pension funds. So pension funds in the UK and the US are a bit more aggressive about where they can put their money into. Who wouldn't like to see their pension fund in Nigeria go into FinTech in some way. I don't care, at the end of the day, my pension funds should be there when I retire. I just want to make sure that when I retire, I just get a check every month. That is what I want. So as long as it's not eroding in value, I think let's keep it what it is and tell people that because you have this, go out and flourish, go out and do the more aggressive investments and do what you need to do.

Host: Yes, an interesting insight. So I think I buy into that really, at the end of the day, you want to have your pension pots waiting for you. I can appreciate that perspective. You're working in FinTech or pension tech as the case may be. Technology can have a very big impact on the adaptation of some of these products, how do you see Awabah leveraging on these opportunities that are available? Definitely within pensions, and maybe to other areas as well as they open up, what do you think would be a disruption in this space specifically? And how do you mitigate against such threats going forward?

Mr. Tunji Andrews: The first thing is the unique value of each customer. That is where we think about the way we approach our business. We are not the kind of business that is going to try to make the customer poor because they're doing business with us. We are a full profit business, but we're also a business that is high on being responsible about how we engage with our customers. So the way you can be able to be super profitable still by doing that is to be able to look at the unique value of each customer. Technology is able to help me take each customer and look at the customer all around and say “Okay, can I be able to extract a little bit more value from this customer by giving this customer a little bit more”  and being able to earn from that extra, instead of increasing the price of my product to this customer. 

Let's think about it from selling a tin of milk. A company could look at selling the tin of milk and saying I sold it for $1 Let me increase it to $1.50. Right? My thought is I sell milk, Can I sell something complementary to milk and make money off that complementary product? Instead of increasing the value of milk. I still make more money without unnecessarily burdening my customers. The only way I can do that effectively is to be able to have the technology available to give me that insight into every detail of my relationship with the customer. How am I reducing costs on my interactions? How am I maximising value on the customer? I saw one of the dashboards upstairs earlier and it's clear to my mind that this is how I need to interact with my customer. I want to see on a day to day basis, how much is my customer saving? If I know that my customer is saving this amount regularly, is there a way that I can reduce the transaction costs of my customer so that my customer can save more? That is the way I think about interacting with my customers as opposed to just increasing the value of the price. I want to increase value and earn more instead of just increasing the price just to earn more.

Host: Still on the subject of technology, a common criticism of pensions is a lack of transparency. So you put money into this pot and you don't really know exactly what products that the PFA is investing in, you don't know how much you've made, you just get some statements intermittently, at some point in time you get statements about the value or if you inquire, they tell you this is the value of your pot but you don't know whether this is true or not, because there really isn't any transparency around how they got to that figure. So people who don't have sights on how the funds are performing, would maybe have a bit of a question in their minds as to whether they're being cheated. In driving transparency and building accountability to give members and beneficiaries an easy to use overview of their likely pension finances. What technology is Awabah going to use to change that narrative?

Mr. Tunji Andrews: So I'll tell you this, we learned from a few companies across the world. We pattern ourselves after a few companies and were very close to them. It is that relationship that is helping us craft what we're building. One of those businesses is ‘Smart Pensions’ in the UK, smart pensions manages pension funds across four continents, they are probably one of the most technologically advanced pension businesses across the world, they've been able to break it down to this micro level that you're talking about. I think this is one way to further create involvement or inclusion from the general public. So think about it from this perspective, How would you feel if you knew that the IPP down the road, part of the money that built it was from your pension fund, or the new bridge that has been built somewhere, part of the money that was invested to build that bridge comes from your pension fund, and then it's going to be told, and then your income from that bridge is going to come back to you. There's a feeling of responsibility. Your pension fund was part of the money that was used to build an airport. that brings you closer to your pension fund. Not only does it bring you closer, every time you see that airport, you feel a bit of pride. You see somebody littering the airport, you feel like the owner of this airport here, you're almost telling the person, do you mind picking that up? That is the connection that needs to happen with pensions. It's not there yet in Nigeria, but maybe not to  speak big about our dreams and aspirations but that's what we want. We want to be able to give each customer a breakdown of what your money was invested in. “see that bridge, see that IPP, see that government bonds” this is what your money went into this year. This is why you should be proud about how your money grew. We're doing it not only to make you have a future but we're doing it responsibly. That is where pensions should get to but we're not close to it yet.

Host: How long do you think it will take for us to get to that stage?

Mr. Tunji Andrews: At Awabah, we have the first engagement with Smart Pensions on this conversation next month. So we're now at the point where we're looking at the technology together and saying “where can we come together? How can we do it? After we've gotten our technology, we still have to bring it to the stakeholders here and say this is what we think the future should be. What do you guys think? And remember again, we're not the Pension Fund, we're not the regulator, we can only suggest the technology. So from our end, it could be as quick as this year.

Host: I contribute to the pensions here at PwC. So I have a pension scheme for me and what I really like is to go on the internet, open my pension account, click on the dashboard and see everything and see what is going on and how my pension pot grows

Mr. Tunji Andrews: The lives it has touched while it is improving your pot is an added factor, that just that doesn't give you only money. Pension funds in Nigeria also need to realise that this is a way to be able to attract customers. Because if my pension fund is giving money and pride, I beat the next pension fund, who is just giving money, even if they're doing more, I know that my money was what created that bridge. I know my money was what created that IPP. It gives pride. I don't know if I'm the only one that thinks this crazy of a threat. 

Host: I think a lot of people can relate to that. 

Mr. Tunji Andrews: So I know that is what it shouldn't be and we continue to think about this. But like I tell you, we're ready for it. If the industry permits, we are ready to do it as quickly as this year.

Host: Tunji, still on the issue of technology, pension schemes hold large volumes of data, sensitive data, personal information, financial information of individuals. A breach of this security can have a devastating effect on the operational aspects of pensions. It could stop payouts and things like that. What cyber security measures are in place to avoid these risks? Also does Awabah use biometric technology?

Mr. Tunji Andrews: I'll start from the regulatory perspective. There's a unique conversation with the pension industry that is not like any other industry in Nigeria. There are three people that relate with your conversation as a RSA holder, you relate directly with only one of them, and that is the pension fund administrators. The pension fund administrator doesn't even hold your money, it is held by another entity called the pension fund custodian and the payout also needs to be approved by the regulator. For money to leave, it needs to have the approval of those three entities. The PFA admits, the regulator says Go ahead, and then a PFC pays. So a data breach on one side is bad but it still needs the other two. So you need a coordinated data breach, to get any problem with a pension fund in Nigeria, which is very unique. I think I love the way it was built. In line with things that have been happening as in global improvements and things like that, biometric registration, specifically using the NIN registration is one of the primary criteria for you to sign up to micro pensions, or pensions, basically. So you need that basic biometric data capture, which of course, because we know that it's necessary for our customers to be captured in that perspective, we've deployed some level of biometric data capture to be able to do this. But still, we are in a very unprecedented era where there are data breaches happening left, right and centre. 

I think I saw recently, somebody listed 10 Data Warehousing companies across the world and said this 10 that have been breached in the last 12 months. I was on the WhatsApp group and I said “oh wow, we used three of these services” So you can't just sit down on data practices, you have to continuously improve them. So today, this is what you're using, can we improve on that? Can we put an added layer so that even if one is breached, the person will have to really be determined to get access to your data. So that's the way we continue to look at it. Of course, sometimes it can slow down the efficiency of a few things, but I think data privacy is far more a greater concern than efficiency. What we need to do is to start creating efficiency on our baseline. So that's the way we look at it, but any product that can help us be more data efficient and more safe, we will always be open to it.

Host: Thanks for that insight. Collation of data is integral to designing products geared towards the customers. How are these large chunks of data secured and managed by Awabah and what sort of data governance policies are in place to ensure that there is proper handling of these data to maintain its integrity?

Mr. Tunji Andrews: So we're two years in operations, we just became two years in January. I can't tell you how much of a headache this particular question that you have asked is for me, because in our mind, we see ourselves as a very small new company but we're now having to manage a lot of data. We do see how sensitive the regulator is to these data concerns. So we're having to put in all sorts of data policies that we feel it should be for big companies that are doing this but because we realise how sensitive this is, we're having to make parts of our office out of bounds. We put in some kind of data measures to make sure that only certain people have access to certain levels of data, keeping certain things in the cloud, whatever we have as documentation keeping in certain places. It's a lot of work, it's a lot of hassle for a small business like ours. You don't think about having to manage this when you start out with a vision. But it's something that we've now been faced with. I can tell you that in my mind, we should be doing a lot better. I think we're doing better than industry average. But I think there's still a lot more room to cover in terms of just knowing that we have the optimal efficiency.

I'll tell you this, I was part of the team that created the sector strategy for Nigeria and while going around Nigeria’s data management systems across MDA’s in Nigeria. When we went to the Central Bank of Nigeria, It was amazing the way the data system in the central bank is. Not many people in the building know where the data storage system is in the building. It's amazing because you work here but you don't know where it is. I was amazed by that, it was really beautiful. It's an intelligent building that requires access. You don't know where the data management system is, you just plug in and you're able to get access to it, but you don't know where it is. You're never sure if it is in the building. But it's amazing and that is the level of data efficiency and data storage that I would like for our company. But like I said, we're still a very small company, but that is the goal. That is the goal.

Host: Wonderful. Today has been a really insightful session. We've had a really good time talking to you today. But before you go, we have some questions for you. Three fun questions. The first one is this. Speaking of predictions, what was the last prediction you got wrong?

Mr. Tunji Andrews: That the central bank would run out of cash. That the central bank will run out of dollars actually. Under this spectacle of the central bank, there was this focus on defending the Naira at some point and I thought they were going to run out quickly but the CBN Governor proved me wrong. I was publicly wrong

Host: Interesting! Second question, what's one view that you seem to find very few people agree on.

Mr. Tunji Andrews: That I don't need to have a skyscraper to live a fulfilled life. That I don't have to have a Bugatti to live a fulfilled life, that I don't need billions in my bank account to be able to live a fulfilled life here.

Host: Mystery question from our previous guests. What is your immediate solution to the challenge of Japa?

Mr. Tunji Andrews: So here's the thing, and this is a fantastic conversation. I'm not trying to keep people here, I'm just trying to keep them connected with here. So one of the things that we do is that if you live in the UK, wherever you live across the world, you can save for pensions back home if you choose to. So we're making it available to Nigerians and not only you save for pensions, you can also give people back on pensions, you could give them health insurance and things like that. So we're not saying don't go, I'm an economist, so I understand capital flows.  If you have to go, please go. Just make sure that you're connected to Nigeria.

Host: That’s good. Final question, disruption is interrelated. In that respect, what's one perspective you'd like to get from our next interviewee?

Mr. Tunji Andrews: I would really like them to ask themselves if they're really disrupting? Because you know, disruption is just a very vague word and it makes people feel once you have a laptop, and you can write code you're disrupting. I'm a bit honest about it. If you're not doing something that has already been done, but you're doing it quicker, I'm not sure that's disrupting, I think that's efficiency. So really be honest with yourself, are you really disrupting? 

Host: This is from me, my question to you. So for all the listeners out there, those listening to this podcast, imagine that you have someone at the other end who doesn't have a pension and Awabah  comes into contact with this person. What do you have to say to them?

Mr. Tunji Andrews: So I have done a bit of study about all the most successful people across the world. One of the things I realised about successful people is audacity, the audacity to be able to go out and do stuff. That audacity comes from a place of knowing that it’s either they burn all bridges and know that they're going to go out and do it. If you fail, it fails, they rather die on it or they always know that there is a fallback option so they're able to give it 120%. What I'm selling to you is that thing that gives you that audacity to be able to go out and become the very best you can become. I'm not saying it's going to make you rich, I'm saying that it's going to give you the freedom to go and be rich. I’m not saying it is going to make you the greatest person in your lineage, but I'm saying it's going to give you that freedom to go and do it. So in essence what I’m selling to you is rest of mind, that in case everything fails, we will be here to take care of you. That is what we are selling to you at Awabah.

Host: Wonderful! On that note, Thank you very much for your time Tunji.

Mr. Tunji Andrews: Thank you for having me. I really enjoyed the conversation.