Find episode transcript below.
ANNOUNCER:
00:00:00:01 Welcome to PwC Pulse, a podcast to provide insights to help you solve today's business challenges.
YOLANDA SEALS-COFFIELD:
00:00:09:10 Hi, I'm Yolanda Seals-Coffield, US Chief People and Inclusion Officer at PwC. And I'm excited to be with you on this episode of the PwC Pulse Podcast. In today's fast-paced business environment, companies are facing a combination of tech disruption, shifting workforce dynamics, and evolving customer expectations.
00:00:30:06 From keeping up with market speed execution to building resilient talent pipelines and fostering organizational agility, leaders are navigating a complex path toward growth. One of the critical questions executives are asking is, how can we adapt to these shifts while advancing the potential of our people and processes? To explore these topics, we're bringing you a little bit of a different format today.
00:00:56:10 Joining me is our very own Kathryn Kaminsky, US Chief Commercial Officer here at PwC. Together, we'll discuss this intersection of meeting the market demands with the right teams, what we're seeing, and how companies can stay ahead. Kathryn, welcome to the podcast.
KATHRYN KAMINSKY:
00:01:13:05 Thanks for having me, Yolanda. I'm really excited for this conversation.
YOLANDA SEALS-COFFIELD:
00:01:17:02 I think it's going to be a really good one. Why don't we start with some quick hits? I know you pretty well, but maybe our listeners will want to know. What is your favorite place in the world to visit?
KATHRYN KAMINSKY:
00:01:25:03 I don't know, any place that I'm going. This sounds ridiculous, but any place that I go with the whole family and go on an adventure, do you know what I mean? Like it's not the place, it's the company.
YOLANDA SEALS-COFFIELD:
00:01:35:10 That makes perfect sense.
KATHRYN KAMINSKY:
00:01:36:12 So my turn, what are you looking most forward to in the new year?
YOLANDA SEALS-COFFIELD:
00:01:40:02 So, 2025 is a good year for us. Sydney graduates college, so really looking forward to that. And then Eric and I will be married 25 years this year.
KATHRYN KAMINSKY:
00:01:49:10 It is a big year. It's lots of good things to celebrate.
YOLANDA SEALS-COFFIELD:
00:01:52:04 All good things.
KATHRYN KAMINSKY:
00:01:53:00 Yeah.
YOLANDA SEALS-COFFIELD:
00:01:53:10 Okay, so let's get into some of these questions. So, you and I are going to spend a little bit of time talking about this rapidly changing business environment. You spend a lot of time with our clients, you spend a lot of time thinking about the commercialization of our business, and you and I talk a lot about talent shortages.
00:02:09:05 And so as we look at today's rapidly changing environment, one of the talent shortages that we spend a lot of time thinking about is in the accounting space. And I know that this is particularly personal and interesting to you. So, give me some of your thoughts on what you would do to build resilient talent pipelines, the pipelines in the accounting profession in particular.
KATHRYN KAMINSKY:
00:02:30:05 Yeah, I mean, it really is very personal to me. Not just because I work at an accounting firm like the heritage being accounting, but my own personal story, right? That I didn't start in accounting. I have a History degree. The firm has been extraordinarily good to me through my career. I am a CA and a CPA and I have as you know, college-age kids who do not want to hear anymore do accounting.
00:02:51:03 And I also do fundamentally believe that an accounting background is one of the best backgrounds you can have. It’s like you don't have to do it to work for us forever. But like fundamentally it is the love language of the business world, I like to say. So, we do have to think about things differently with talent, not just us, as you say around the accounting shortage.
00:03:11:04 And the things that we're doing around the accounting shortages, as you know, is around selling the story of what it means to be an accountant. That it's beyond just dollars and cents that some people think, working on spreadsheets. We have this incredible place that you can grow up and learn leadership skills, how to coach. The opportunity that you've given our people through the training that you do on different things.
00:03:32:02 Whether it's AI that's coming today with the program you're working on, or even throughout the career when it was Your Tomorrow, as it relates to soft skills. Like all of those things are really important to tell the story that what we can do and all the other things we do around mental health. And so, when I think about it in the business sense to all of our clients is around selling the story of what it means to both the person personally and in their own adventures.
00:03:58:07 Choosing their adventure and how they grow and also what that means for the long term to them. Because we have a responsibility, not just us but business leaders as a whole to train our talent. When they come out of school, they have a lot of great skills, but we have to think about the future. Where does it go? I think this is something you are really focused with us on, is what the future holds.
00:04:18:09 Getting them ready for future skills, right? Not just the skills they have today. It is something I'm passionate about because it's a give-and-take. They've got to come and work with us and people come into the business world, but we have to train them and continuously train.
YOLANDA SEALS-COFFIELD:
00:04:32:03 I love that and I love that you say it's the love language because we talk so much about accounting skills just being so foundational to the business world and you will never regret developing the skills that you'll develop as an accountant and you will take those skills anywhere throughout your career.
KATHRYN KAMINSKY:
00:04:45:08 Totally. And I say this like I spend a lot of time at a lot of clients and I would say an accounting background is one of the only places that you, with each year that you go through, we talk about the skills that you teach, but on the ground learning. By like one year you're doing, the next year you're coaching, the next year you're supervising. Like all of that skillset that we can get at our firm is pretty amazing.
YOLANDA SEALS-COFFIELD:
00:05:08:06 Yeah, I think that's right.
KATHRYN KAMINSKY:
00:05:10:01 So, we talked about talent shortage, you brought it up and this is your area, it's your love language. So, as businesses are thinking about it, how should they be thinking about recruiting and training?
YOLANDA SEALS-COFFIELD:
00:05:20:04 One of the interesting things is we are thinking about how you attack this on multiple fronts and so many other organizations are as well. So, if you think how do we attract people to careers early, get ourselves in front of college students, as they're starting to navigate their way across campus and thinking about what they want to do with their lives, we want to show them that there's this incredible rich profession that they can be a part of.
00:05:42:02 So, figuring out how we get in front of them and then staying engaged on campus. And we are lucky, we have incredible leaders in this firm, leaders like yourself who we can call at a moment's notice, who will go spend an entire day on campus meeting with our students, meeting with the deans, meeting with the professors.
00:05:57:05 We have as much of an obligation to train our people when they get here as we do to make sure that the universities understand what is expected of these students so that they can be successful when they get here. And then the third, which I know is near and dear to your heart, is we can't ignore this incredible breadth of liberal arts students. There are students everywhere who have incredible analytical minds who will do great work across our firm, whether it's in accounting, whether it's in consulting, whether it's in tax, and we just need to bring them in and train them.
00:06:25:09 So, the onus is on us to make sure that we can focus on that skill development and drive the right skills and give people the right opportunities. We just need to find intellectually curious smart people to join our firm and we can't be really rigid around where we find them.
KATHRYN KAMINSKY:
00:06:40:06 Yeah. And I think it's sort of being brave, being bold, taking that job and working with the universities to make it doable so that they can become accountants.
YOLANDA SEAL-COFFIELD:
00:06:47:08 No, it makes a huge difference. So, we had a recent PwC study that said 84% of leaders are confident in their talent and capabilities, but many struggle in keeping up with the fast-paced market environment. And we talk a lot here about market speed, right? So, the market speed to execution sometimes can feel as if you're walking a tightrope and balancing rapid decision-making with strategic focus.
00:07:12:02 And I know that this is probably where you spend 80% of your day. How do you advise our clients, how do you tell companies to stay agile in such a fast-paced environment?
KATHRYN KAMINSKY:
00:07:23:07 It's so interesting because if you think about sort of the last five years, the only consistent thing has actually been changed, right? And the rapid pace of change including on the talent side, right? Going from the great resignation to a bit of a market slowdown and then the external impact of what's going on. And so, I always say like you need to plan to go fast but also sometimes plan to go slow.
00:07:49:03 Right? And we always have this conversation, do you have to be first to market or is it okay to be second to market on certain things? And sort of taking the time for planning in a fast-paced environment sounds counterintuitive, but it is important, right? You've got to sort of slow down, is this the thing we need to do and who are our stakeholders to make sure that we're not actually making it harder on our stakeholders?
00:08:12:07 And we have many stakeholders and so do many of our clients and our people is a big stakeholders. And I think sometimes we can get confusing, right? So, I think planning, you're going to have to take risks. You have to learn from the risks if for one you did right and one you did wrong, what did you do differently? How did you do it?
00:08:28:03 And sometimes also we talk always risk, but there's also sometimes the risk of doing nothing and making sure that you're looking at that risk in the same way. So, all those things coming together. But I think that the last point I'd say on all of this is transparency is the most important thing. The more transparent you are with your different stakeholders, you really have not much to lose anymore,
00:08:50:09 because you're at least telling them what you're thinking, where you're going. And if it was a good decision, it was. If it wasn't like, although you had their back because you told them what you were doing.
YOLANDA SEAL-COFFIELD:
00:08:59:04 Right. And that being transparent about some of those failures is important as well. Right?
KATHRYN KAMINSKY:
00:09:02:07 Totally. I mean, I'm a big believer, like you see in some of my notes, we talk a lot about wins because obviously the commercial side. But I sent a note out the other day talking about what are our themes from losses. Because you can learn a lot from, to your point, failure. So, that's how I think about it.
YOLANDA SEALS-COFFIELD:
00:09:14:10 Yeah, that's great.
KATHRYN KAMINSKY:
00:09:15:02 I'm going to go to you with a question. We talk about it a lot as a team as well. And you talked about our responsibility and so did I about upskilling our people. So, it is more important than ever and we're seeing that. But I guess when you think about it and upskilling, you need to think about three to five years.
00:09:31:05 So, what do you think the next critical skills will be in that period? And how do you get your teams energized to think about long-term business goals?
YOLANDA SEALS-COFFIELD:
00:09:40:07 That's a great question Kathryn, because there was a time when you could say these are the five skills that people are going to need to be successful. And we know exactly what those are. I think if we're really honest with ourselves today, we don't know exactly what those five tangible hard skills are going to be.
00:09:54:06 But we do know a couple of things. We know that we need agile learners. So, we know that skills are going to continue to be at the forefront. And more and more, we are becoming a skills-first organization. So, as you look out over the next three to five years, your actual title and role will be far less important than the collection of skills that you are developing along the way.
00:10:14:00 Because what's going to be important is not only your ability to develop and show proficiency in those skills but then for those skills to be transferable for you to do something else. So, as the needs of our clients change, as the market continues to move at such a rapid speed, and as you've said, the only thing that has been consistent is change, having agile learners is going to be really important.
00:10:31:09 So, we look for people who are deeply passionate about learning and we're really lucky. I mean we are really, really lucky. We onboard around 15,000 people a year, many of them from college campuses. They are so inspired to learn. They are learning agile, they are inspired to continue learning and those people make great fits in our organization.
00:10:51:10 So, having people with a natural love of learning, having a nimble workforce where you can switch and pivot what they're doing really quickly is going to be really important. And then I think really thinking about understanding skills because there are incredible skills that people develop in the audit side of our business as you know really well that transfer beautifully to the consulting side of our business and vice versa.
00:11:12:06 And so thinking about those skills in not so much in a linear way around how that grows and propels someone up this direct ladder, but how we move people across our organization so that they're getting great experiences, our clients are getting the benefits of their experiences and they're continuing to grow and upskill along the way.
KATHRYN KAMINSKY:
00:11:29:07 I love that. I think you also have to have leaders that are open-minded who are willing to take the people. Right? And I think that's another area you're so great at pushing us on.
YOLANDA SEALS-COFFIELD:
00:11:37:10 I think you're absolutely right. And one of the things that's really making these skills conversations even more tangible is the intersection between these skills and AI. And so, you were out at Davos and I understand that AI was a big topic of discussion. There's so much going on in the technology space and it's not just about adopting new technology, but it's about equipping our people with the right skills to do it effectively.
00:12:02:10 So, when you think about driving our AI strategy and that falls within the space that you're responsible for in the firm, how do you get our people and our teams to embrace the skills that they need to work alongside AI and technology?
KATHRYN KAMINSKY:
00:12:17:05 Yeah, I mean, it's a topic that's everywhere and we use the word intrinsic because it really is in everything that we do. And we're also very focused on the workforce as a whole with the impact of AI on the more commercial side of our, like how do we help clients do this? And I think the one thing that scares people is people talk about the technology, but I think one thing you hear a lot from us is it is human-led.
00:12:38:08 So, I think for us the focus is putting the technology first in the right hands. So, what I mean by that is, we have a significant workforce who is less tenured, really intellectually curious and they've been fiddling with different technologies. So, one is making sure that the right people get access to the technology, not thinking about it just in a linear way that as you go from hierarchy down, they should get it.
00:13:03:07 It's probably actually a bit of the opposite. And giving those people the freedom to manipulate to challenge themselves. They also do a lot of the work and like you want them to feel part of it to say, how can I do my work differently with the use of this technology, with the right, obviously, parameters of risk and having a lot of citizen-led teaching? Right?
00:13:23:02 And then also to think about our talent pool differently in the sense that maybe tomorrow AI will be doing the task but they're needed because they need to do something different. They may be coaching differently. So, it's really embracing it in the system to make sure that people feel that they're part of it. I heard a term the other day, and I don't think actually if I've told you yet, called FOBO. The fear of being obsolete.
YOLANDA SEALS-COFFIELD:
00:13:49:00 FOBO.
KATHRYN KAMINSKY:
00:13:49:10 FOBO. And that people feel it. And if people feel that they're going to be obsolete, they're not going to embrace technology to go to where we need to go. So, they need to feel part of it. And so, that to me is so important. And having the discussion, again, I think transparency matters. It really does. To be transparent to your teams to say, these are the things we're doing, this is what we're thinking about.
00:14:11:10 How do you think about it? Where should it go? And actually, the one thing I'll end with is, you also have to be able to teach the technology, right? How to use it. I think there are a lot of people who think they know how to use it, but I think things are moving so rapidly that you need someone who understands the technology, who also is willing to challenge the status quo.
YOLANDA SEALS-COFFIELD:
00:14:31:07 I couldn't agree more.
KATHRYN KAMINSKY:
00:14:32:05 So, with technology and society evolving so fast, right? Change. How can companies create and build a culture of continuous learning and curiosity and how do leaders support that mindset?
YOLANDA SEALS-COFFIELD:
00:14:43:10 So, one of the things that we've thought a lot about is how you personalize learning. So, to your point, if we are going to keep up with and understand how to leverage technology to help us do our jobs better, to help us serve our clients better, we have to remain agile in the way that we learn. We have to remain intellectually curious, but it can be a bit overwhelming to people. There's so much out there and it is rapidly changing and we're trying to do our day jobs and keep up with learning and continue to upskill and invest in ourselves.
00:15:11:03 So, what we've thought a lot about is how do you personalize that learning for people? How do you create platforms where people can go in and identify the areas that they need to focus on and also the areas that they want to focus on so that they are using their time wisely, they're investing in themselves in a meaningful way?
00:15:27:07 As organizations, we have to be ready for that rapid shift in change in learning. So, we need to create the bootcamps, we need to create the opportunities, we need to bring our people together in meaningful ways. And then the third thing I'd say is we must never forget that the very best learning occurs on the job sitting next to someone. Right?
00:15:46:10 And so that apprenticeship model that has been so core to our business and so core to the business of so many industries should not be forgotten and cannot be replaced with technology. I'm going to learn about having that tough conversation by sitting next to you and watching you have that tough conversation. And so, we want to make sure that we build in a really integrated way, that apprenticeship learning environment.
KATHRYN KAMINSKY:
00:16:07:07 I think it's interesting, the soft skills or leadership skills, the importance of that teaching in this environment is incredibly important.
YOLANDA SEALS-COFFIELD:
00:16:16:08 I think that's right. I mean, you started when you talked about technology being human-led, right? So, we can't lose those human skills as we start to lean into the different technologies because the technologies will change, but those skills will be with us all the time
00:16:29:00 When we think about human skills, one of the core ways that we develop incredible human skills is through mentors. You are a mentor of mine, you have benefited from great mentors.
00:16:39:08 I think mentorship is a really, really powerful tool as we think about future-proofing our talent and nurturing our future leaders. So, how can mentorship in your mind, help build connections and inspire growth in our organization and in any organization?
KATHRYN KAMINSKY:
00:16:55:02 Mentorship goes back to the leadership human skills. And I'm going to hit your question in two folds. Because there's mentorship and then there's advocacy and they're different. And especially in a people-led organization, you need both. So, I think for me, and this sounds so simple, and so it's not all that sexy, is like lead by example. Like if someone was good to you, be good to someone else.
00:17:18:09 And our responsibility as leaders and mentors is you don't always have to mentor the highest performer. Because actually, you know what? That's kind of easy. Right? You need to find someone who you can see huge potential in that probably just needs a little bit more help for different reasons, right? Some of it is environmental, some of it is just where they're working doesn't match them perfectly.
00:17:40:09 But you see that and you take the time to first of all, sit with them and spend time with them to talk about what do they want to do, where do they want to go, where do they want to see? And that they feel like the point for me as a mentor has got to be a place that they feel is a safe space to get some help, when they need it.
00:17:59:01 And to get that encouragement in there versus advocacy, which is different, right? Where it's that person who pushes you that extra step and they're not always the same. Like I had great mentors and I had great advocates. Those advocates like kicked me, but they not only kicked me to go up that hill, they were there to catch me if I had problems, right? To challenge me to go further than I felt comfortable going.
00:18:22:04 But if I made a mistake, I knew they were there to help me solve my mistake. And both of those, no matter what happens to technology, I think both you and I believe those are the skills that there are really special people who do that. It's inherent in what they do, but we need to do more. We ought to teach it more. And like it is the place that I think makes the difference between an A-plus environment and an A.
00:18:48:01 To have those people that you can go to. And honestly, I think it starts with the work. I always say this because people ask me a lot of times like, ‘Can you be my mentor?’ Well, I'd love to be your mentor, but I need to build a relationship with you. I need to know what you do. I need to see how you do it. So, like, don't go looking for that person. Like out there. Like, don't forget the person sitting next to you.
00:19:09:03 Maybe they're a second-year associate and you're a first-year associate at our firm. They can be your mentor, right? They can help you. They've walked in your shoes. They know what it's like. So, it's something I do feel very passionately about, and I'll end with this. I think accountability to have you mentor people, have you advocated for people as you're moving through the organization is really important.
00:19:27:08 No organization is great at that, right? It's very hard to count and we all love to count things, but this is one that the future, honestly, of the whole professional world is based on getting really great talent and we're all responsible for it.
YOLANDA SEALS-COFFIELD:
00:19:42:04 I love that. And that is how you leave a lasting legacy, right? It’s by bringing people along that journey with you. I also think it's incredible advice to tell people to look for those mentors closer to home. I do think people reach out and they see someone on a webcast or hear someone on a podcast and they find that person really inspirational. And those are great sources of inspiration, but the people right next to you are going to be incredibly helpful to you.
00:20:04:07 So, I love that. We could talk all day, we do talk all day often, but I do think we are out of time. So, Kathryn, I want to thank you so much for joining me today and discussing some of these really critical issues around leadership and what leaders are thinking about right now. The war for talent is never going to end. It will ebb and flow
00:20:22:08 but the organizations that are really staying at the forefront and thinking about how they recruit talent, how they develop talent, how they future proof their talent skills are really going to have a lasting impact. And so, as businesses evolve, we are going to evolve to meet the demands today and tomorrow. It's clear that people are really critical to our strategic success. So, thank you so much.
KATHRYN KAMINSKY:
00:20:43:10 So, I want to give you a thanks. I think the one thing that people probably don't know as much is you're my business partner, right? Our firm has people and we have clients, and the relationship is absolutely you need both. And so, thank you for being my partner to get us to the next stage. And I think I'll end with that is what makes our people strategy different. It's linked to our business and I love working with you, so thank you.
YOLANDA SEALS-COFFIELD:
00:21:07:10 Thank you. And to our listeners, thank you for joining us on this episode of PwC Pulse. Please share this episode with others who might find this conversation helpful. Thanks everyone! See you next time.
ANNOUNCER:
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ANNOUNCER:
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